• December 17, 2017 at 3:56 am

    I don’t have time to adequately destroy/answer your questions.

    But I do have time to say this.

    I don’t care how many starting pitchers that were developed by 1 team are still on that team. And I especially don’t care when it comes to larger market clubs because we all know they develop guys (mostly) just to use them as trade bait because others want them.

    Yes, the Royals did use a lot of young starters as trade bait themselves in their quest to win but it’s not like we got a ton in return for what we traded compared to what some other teams have. And the fact of the matter still stands that right now you have nobody that you’d consider a star standing out there on the mound any single day.

    How is that even defensible?

    And sure maybe Hosmer, maybe Moose and maybe Cain will get paid… but who doesn’t in baseball. I can point to guys getting paid that are complete and total crap and you’d have to agree, so that argument doesn’t even hold water. Besides the fact I never said Hosmer, Moose or Cain didn’t have value, I said that or insinuated that their value – especially for their draft positions (well Hosmer and Moose) aren’t near the value of other guys that other teams drafted in those same or other drafts.

    To clarify, you wouldn’t put Hosmer or Moose on near the same level as a LOT of other guys that were drafted by other teams that are clearly considered superstars or stars. Moose absolutely isn’t on that level… maybe Hosmer is or isn’t depending on who you ask.

    So you have a guy in charge that has developed NO starting pitching and has failed to draft one single guy you’d consider a superstar and maybe only 1 guy that you’d really consider a star in ELEVEN years of being in charge.

    He’s also consistently given out bad contracts and has failed to make many real impact trades despite having the pieces to do so… because his heart won’t let him. Even HE said he had to be better.

    But yet he must obviously and without question be more qualified and better than anybody the Royals could possibly hire…………

    That makes perfect sense.

  • December 17, 2017 at 8:13 am

    I am sure that this back and forth about Dayton “I have a passion to lead” Moore will go on until we have an owner who has the sense to boot him out.

    I am slightly surprised that Glass didn’t seize the opportunity presented by Atlanta’s interest. I say that mainly because Moore has made some very costly errors. Also because Dayton is saying that his “mission” is the same one from 11 years ago that he has failed to deliver on.
    “What we’re going to do looking forward is to build our farm system and win for 10-15 years without going through the winning and losing cycles, like we just did. That’s our mission.”

    Lots of ego involved I assume.
    Did Glass not see that Dayton was saying the same thing he said when he originally hired him as G.M.?

  • December 17, 2017 at 12:56 pm

    I don’t have time to respond to your points. Instead, I’m going to write 8 paragraphs of subjective nonsense that is utterly divorced from reality. Whatever.

    I’ll do a point by point.

    “I don’t care how many starting pitchers that were developed by 1 team are still on that team. And I especially don’t care when it comes to larger market clubs because we all know they develop guys (mostly) just to use them as trade bait because others want them.

    “Yes, the Royals did use a lot of young starters as trade bait themselves in their quest to win but it’s not like we got a ton in return for what we traded compared to what some other teams have. And the fact of the matter still stands that right now you have nobody that you’d consider a star standing out there on the mound any single day.”

    If you don’t care how many pitchers develop and stay with the team then why should it matter what Moore has done on that front? He is bad because he hasn’t done it, yet you don’t care if others do it or not. No logical consistency here.

    If Moore emulated other successful teams by trading away pitching prospects, and that in turn resulted in winning, isn’t that what the GM should be doing? Cashing out at the right time seems like what everyone that wins does. Maybe that is good?

    There are like five stars in all in baseball and none of them the Royals could sign. You are right, Moore doesn’t have a Kershaw or Strasburg to his name. As do nearly all other franchises. How dare he.

    “And sure maybe Hosmer, maybe Moose and maybe Cain will get paid… but who doesn’t in baseball. I can point to guys getting paid that are complete and total crap and you’d have to agree”

    No you can’t or you would. Sure, some guys aren’t worth what they are getting paid now, like Pujols, but what they signed for at the time of signing was their market value. That is what teams felt the player to be worth. When our guys go get paid elsewhere, it is creating a valuation of the player that is indicative of their performance. That is basic economics in a free market.

    “Besides the fact I never said Hosmer, Moose or Cain didn’t have value, I said that or insinuated that their value – especially for their draft positions (well Hosmer and Moose) aren’t near the value of other guys that other teams drafted in those same or other drafts.”

    Lets look at who has been drafted 2nd or 3rd for a decade where those players reasonably could have reach the big leagues.

    02 – BJ Upton/Chris Gruler
    03 – Rickie Weeks/Kyle Sleeth
    04 – Justin Verland/Phil Humber
    05 – Alex Gordon/Jeff Clement
    06 – Greg Reynolds/Evan Longoria
    07 – Moose/Josh Vitters
    08 – Pedro Alvarez/Eric Hosmer
    09 – Dustin Ackley/Donavan Tate
    10 – Jameson Taillon/Manny Machado
    11 – Danny Hultzen/Trevor Bauer
    12 – Byron Buxton/Mike Zunino
    13 – Kris Bryant/Jon Gray

    Bryant, Machado, Longoria and Verlander are better than the three Royals listed. But out of the 20 names listed, the Royals hit way better than league average in terms of those picks panning out. That’s just reality. But feel free to wax poetic about what could have been with Josh Vitters, Mike Zunino, Kyle Sleeth and Chris Gruler.

    “To clarify, you wouldn’t put Hosmer or Moose on near the same level as a LOT of other guys that were drafted by other teams that are clearly considered superstars or stars. Moose absolutely isn’t on that level… maybe Hosmer is or isn’t depending on who you ask.”

    See previous point and add that Trout also wasn’t draft with a top 5 pick along with a bunch of other guys. 25th to be exact. Kershaw went 7th. Scherzer 11th. Sale 13th. Syndergaard 38th. I don’t know what point you are trying to make here about stars and where they were drafted.

    “So you have a guy in charge that has developed NO starting pitching and has failed to draft one single guy you’d consider a superstar and maybe only 1 guy that you’d really consider a star in ELEVEN years of being in charge.”

    When we talked “stars” in the past, there were like 10 guys that met your standard. This means that nearly no one meets this mythical “star” production quota of yours. Moreover, I’d rather have a good team than a star to the extent the two aren’t correlated. Trout and Stanton wasting away with their teams the last several years isn’t what I’d hope the Royals model their team after. Yet you still want to make up a standard, “star”, that you say Moore has failed on. I’ll take the WS over a star every time.

    “He’s also consistently given out bad contracts and has failed to make many real impact trades despite having the pieces to do so… because his heart won’t let him. Even HE said he had to be better.”

    This I won’t argue with. He hasn’t been good with major league FA for the most part. I’d argue the Perez and Duffy deals are pretty team friendly and on the margins he has done well with lotto tickets like Volquez. It was enough to be successful for a couple years. But he has had plenty of flops like Infante , Kennedy and what looks to be the Gordon deal.

  • December 17, 2017 at 9:11 pm

    I should have clarified but sort of figured you’d understand that when I said I didn’t care what the other teams you listed did I meant that as large market clubs… which is why I specifically said that’s what large market clubs do.

    Small market clubs don’t. Or shouldn’t. They should draft and develop their OWN players and build or supplement around them. This is what the majority of good young small market clubs do, which is why they win.

    What good starting pitching did Dayton draft and develop over the past 11 years that we built around? I’ll wait.

    What good starting pitching is still on this team that Dayton drafted and developed that we can look forward to being on this team for the next few years?

    I don’t need an answer because the answer is none. And that’s STILL indefensible. 11 freakin’ years. 11 years. NOTHING to show for it other than some guys you traded away for older veterans because you were DESPERATE to try and win. And sure, it worked. Nobody knows why because virtually the same exact team 2 years later was trash. But it worked. You got your World Series.

    And then immediately went back to watching the same guys play to the level they really were at all along… which was basically a .500 team that didn’t catch breaks and had serious flaws all around.

    Hell, it got so bad that Dayton changed his ENTIRE WAY OF BUILDING A TEAM… and tried to get more power which completely blew up in his face as well.

    Never have they had a good team OBP despite being told by Dayton and Ned basically every single season that they actually did care about OBP. They don’t score run. They don’t pitch well. And we certainly don’t draft or develop well.

    And I don’t know why you went back an hundred years and started posting 2nd and 3rd round picks. I don’t know what that has to do with whether Eric Hosmer was the right guy or Moustakas was the right guy or Colon was the right guy or on and on was the right guy to take in their perspective drafts. Because more often than not… they weren’t.

    Do you want to argue that next? Dayton’s drafting has been crap. And that’s another mostly indefensible argument for the pro Dayton crowd.

    I’m just curious where it ends.

    You can’t defend his lack of drafting or developing starting pitching. You can point to 1, maybe 2, maybe 3 guys he’s drafted in 11 seasons that you’d considering competent players. Most of his trades other than Greinke have not been impact trades and even the lesser ones are lesser trades so who cares. And honestly even with Greinke you could argue that he really should have got more… but we’ll let that slide. We mostly sign “older” free agents to bad contracts. And they’re not a good hitting team, they’re not a good pitching team (starters).

    So you’re entire… ENTIRE… defense of Dayton Moore is they won a World Series and nobody else could have done that. Oh and… in your opinion NOBODY they could possibly hire now would be better.

    Meaning that you don’t think anybody else could possibly draft and develop a starter. Nobody else could possibly draft or develop any better hitting. Nobody could possibly make a bigger splash in free agency or make better/smarter trades to get younger… instead of just signing 35 year olds, while trading away 18 year olds.

    Nobody.

    That’s your argument. That’s the defense.

  • December 17, 2017 at 10:10 pm

    Here let me make it simple…..

    What is the objective of the General Manager? To win World Series? I mean that’s sort of the objective of the entire organization and the General Manager is pretty much the guy. So we’ll say his job is to pretty much win the World Series.

    But we all know it’s not really that simple.

    Honestly his job is to do just that, but in order to do that he needs the best players on the field, the best manager in the clubhouse and the best personnel around them.

    To win baseball games.

    See, we’re all going to agree the playoffs are a crapshoot. In baseball the best regular season team doesn’t always make it to the World Series. In fact it doesn’t happen all that often at all like it did this past season.

    So the true objective of any General Manager is to win games. You win enough games and you make the playoffs. You make the playoffs and you have a chance to make the World Series.

    You don’t make the playoffs – ie don’t win enough games – and you have no chance at the World Series.

    Simple, right?

    So if you honestly break it down in 11 seasons in charge of the Royals, Dayton has had 3 winning seasons. I’ve said this multiple times and you seem to just dismiss it like it’s normal, when it’s not. I’ve already pointed out where a good majority of other teams – and many of them small market clubs – have had SUSTAINED success where they were winning games (albeit not always making the playoffs but winning or being competitive).

    But your General Manager – the one you said nobody could do better than – has had success with this club 3 times in 11 seasons. I think it’s probably pretty obvious at this point that we’re going to be rebuilding or at least not going to be competitive this next year, or the year after, or the year after.. and probably not the year after.

    But even if it’s just 3 or 4 more seasons of non-competitive baseball, that puts DM at 14/15 years, 3 good seasons…. and then HOPEFULLY we win again, maybe.

    And that’s impressive? That’s what you argue is a good General Manager? That’s what you argue that NOBODY could do better than?

    Are you serious?

  • December 19, 2017 at 4:33 am

    30 hours between volleys. Is this fight over?

    Maybe the “3 winning seasons in 14 or 15 years” factual point was the knockout punch. 😀

  • December 19, 2017 at 8:47 am

    So since SP brought it up in defense of Dayton that these 3 guys were going to get “paid” and that was validation that they were star players…………….

    It seems that most doors are starting to close on them, at least in the bigger markets where they really would have got big paychecks.

    When Boston chooses Moreland over you, you know that you’re just not as good as you think you are. The Yankees seem to think that Bird makes more sense than Hosmer — a trade (packaged with Torres obviously) I said we should have done a couple of years back. And with trading for Stanton made the obvious statement that Hoz doesn’t come anywhere near that guys worth.

    The Angels don’t want Moose and the Padres may be the biggest suitors to Hoz.

    Not exactly what they were looking for, I’d imagine.

  • December 19, 2017 at 10:53 am

    Holiday armistice. I’m with family basically through the end of the year and don’t have time to reply now.

    Hope everyone has a happy and healthy holidays. We may bicker and argue, but I really enjoy the conversations with everyone here.

  • December 19, 2017 at 11:49 pm

    @southpaw1188 said:
    Holiday armistice. I’m with family basically through the end of the year and don’t have time to reply now.

    Hope everyone has a happy and healthy holidays. We may bicker and argue, but I really enjoy the conversations with everyone here.

    Oh hell yeah. You’re one of the few I’ve argued with over the past 15 years about this stuff that I think is probably as smart as I am.

    Well, almost.

    😛

    Love you guys. Happy holidays. Merry Christmas.

  • December 20, 2017 at 10:53 am

    Well, well what have we here?….maybe there will be peace in the Middle East after all. 😀

    Yes, I share these sentiments. Happy Holidays to all! 😀

    Besides world peace my big wish is that the light has gone on bigly in the Royal’s front office, and they understand now that they have ramp up their analytics capacity, and their ability to integrate it into their scouting and player development systems.

  • January 1, 2018 at 2:28 pm

    MLBTR just posted a Royal’s inventory.

    Not to much surprising sounds like Adams thinka we might be able to dump Hammel and Soria’s contracts, and that Herrera should fetch something.

    My hunch is that trying to shed these threew contracts is Dayton’s prime directive these days.

    https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/01/royals-trade-chips-taking-inventory.html-